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Angry Atheist
This week my daughter was told that she could not be a Christian and believe in evolution. It led to a great discussion and thankfully she came to realize there are many ways to practice the Christian faith. Now, if people trying to make her question her faith would just admit that basic truth, we would all get along.
I posted “I hope she makes more friends who are atheist” very tongue in cheek on my twitter feed and ended up in a debate with an atheist who seemed to want to convince me of the same thing my daughters friend was advocating – Christians can’t believe in evolution. He wrote,
“Well isn’t it a valid question? I mean isn’t the whole story of how sin came into being based on the concept of 2 humans? If man didn’t bring about sin upon himself, then there is no need for redemption. If it was all part of a natural process, all part of evolution, Jesus had no reason to die, no reason to be called a savior. Doesn’t that just make it barbaric? Make it vile? It seems like evolution would make you question so much if you think about it”
Isn’t it amazing how well versed my new atheist friend is in traditional Christian doctrine? I don’t know why he is an atheist. My guess would be that he was a Christian and someone told him that Christians can’t believe in evolution or that all non-Christians were going to burn in hell or that gays were an abomination to God. I guess if I believed all that and was told that the only reason Jesus came to earth was because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and condemned me to hell, I would be an angry atheist myself. I tried to convince him that not all Christians read scripture the way he did. He accused me of “cherry picking” scriptures…as evidenced by his comment below.
As I shared in several recent posts, I have really struggled with the “Christian” label because I feel it is being hijacked by those with only one extreme view. I have even thought of just dropping the word and identifying myself as a “Jesus follower” which sadly sets me apart from many who aggressively claim the “Christian” title for their sect only.
While many would likely describe me as progressive in my theology, I really think in the spectrum of Christian beliefs, I am pretty middle of the road. The sad thing is that the more the conservatives push their agenda, the more I seek to disassociate with them. By watching my daughters respond to this aggressive “our way or the highway” approach to the faith, I truly believe this stance is the greatest threat to the faith.
I pray my daughters do not end up angry atheist because some Christian decides to “save” them. I also pray my new friend meets a real “Jesus Follower” who will help him redefine what it means to be a Christian.
I read Rachel Held Evans book, “Evolving in Monkey Town”, yesterday. She was raised in a very conservative brand of Christianity and went through her own struggles against conservative teachings without losing her faith in Christ. It was a great read, especially for anyone trying to reconcile the issues of where other faiths fit into God’s plan, how advances in science impact the Christian tradition and what it means for a faith tradition to evolve without losing its core beliefs. She uses humor and her own story to convey some great information. I hope someone will pass a copy of the book along to my atheist friend. I would really like him to know that there are ways of being Christian that look nothing like his idea of what a Christian is. Sadly, far too many people think of Christianity exactly the way he does.
Another good one, Wendy! Sometimes I feel like you’ve read my mind.People like HA are a big part of what has kept me(and a lot of others, I suspect) out of the church all these years. Believing in the possibility of evolution, the ‘big bang’ and other scientific theories shouldn’t exclude one from being a Christian. Isn’t there a guiding hand behind those processes? I like to believe so. I’ve had friends and family members literally laugh at the way I choose to see things, because it’s not what they are taught in their particular Sunday gathering. I wonder, has there ever been a survey to show how many people stay away from the church because of sin, lack of belief vs. how many stay away because of people like your daughter ran into? Anyway, thanks, Wendy! I’m a needs-validation-kind-of-girl and you help me to know that, “yes I am a Christian!”…despite what the “my way or the highway” people think!
Oh- you and Kristin grab some popcorn and go rent “Inherit The Wind” and watch it together!
Excellent question about the survey. I am sure George Barna has probably done a survey but I have not read anything recently.
My sense among young people is that they have an image of Christians as intolerant, arrogant, and judgmental and that is why they want nothing to do with the Christian faith. Even my buddy Hateful Atheist writes on his blog that he hates religion because of all the evil that has been committed in the name of religion. Can’t really say I disagree with him on that point.
I have not watched the movie you reference but tonight would be a good movie night so I will see if I can get it on demand.
I think you would love Rachel’s book that I reference. Her small town experience reminds me of ours except I was the little girl outside the church and she was the one on the inside.
Christians and scientists should not be afraid of each other, they are each searching for the same thing; Truth. It seems those on each side that are sure of the answer are the ones that are violently opposed to the other. As a Christian, I know God is the only one with all the answers. As a rational person I know there is no way I or any human can have all the answers.
Love the last line of your comment!
Kris – I watched “Inherit the Wind” last night with Kristen. It was a great suggestion. The book I mention references the trial and has info about the events leading up to it. Great to watch the movie right after reading the book. Even more fun to do it with my daughter.
Dear Atheist,
I am sorry to have upset you.I have deleted your comment because of your foul language. I thought you made some good points during our very public twitter exchange and that you were genuine in wanting to point out the challenges reconciling faith and science. I think your points were valid and valuable.
I have discovered you live up to your name and upon this discovery, I have removed all references to your name from this post. If you choose to comment again and use language that is non-offensive, I welcome your comment.
That’s great, Wendy. I love that movie..it’s one of my all time favorites!
I take no issue with you presenting part of the discussion, although you chose only a small snip it. I do take issue with your very off base judgment of me. Perhaps if you’re worried about what “Christians” are telling your kids you should seek to be a good example and not allow your prejudices to write lines that you obviously can not back up. My reason for not being a Christian is simple, so simple you could understand it even if you sought to understand it. Instead you will simply cast incorrect, ignorant, juvenile claims against who I am and why I am who I am. That I will not stand for, and that is why I stand by what I said. I had the courtesy to ask your opinion in a very polite way and when you repeat it to other your chose to slander me. Plus the very incorrect fact that after you could no longer twist your logic or cherry pick parts of the bible you feel reflect your world view, YOU stopped responding and subsequently blocked men. I guess facts and the Christian world view are just always at conflict with each other, eh?
You are correct. You stopped posting for a while, I went to bed, I wrote the post that morning before I went on twitter. Then I read the last three comments that you sent later that day and added one of them to the post. So, I stand corrected. You did not write me off as quickly as I originally thought you did. I will remove that comment.
I did not block you on twitter until your very crude comment on this blog.
I certainly did not mean to pass judgement on you. As you point out, I don’t know the first thing about you. You are obviously knowledgeable about Christian doctrine. I did visit your blog and read that you hate religion because of all the evil committed in the name of religion and I totally get that. I hate that part of religion as well.
Thanks for coming back and voicing your objection to the post.
I again apologize for any “incorrect, ignorant, juvenile” claims I made against you. That was certainly not my goal.
Wendy, you showed what kind of Christian you are when you decided to engage him with thoughtfulness and the respect due all of God’s children rather than attack or reject him. What comes out of our mouths typically says more about ourselves than it does others and is true in this case as well. So I am glad to find another “Jesus follower” along my path. I too am cautious about the Christian label and prefer to think of myself as a follower of “The Way.” Science has never been a threat to my faith, but only proof of a divine architect to give such order to a chaotic universe.
I think Hateful Atheist has some very good points and I really enjoyed our exchange on twitter. I think seeing Christianity through the eyes of those outside the faith can teach us a lot. We work in a community with folks who likely think of Christians exactly the way he does. If we don’t try understand the anger, we will never learn to see ourselves through the eyes of the world.
The weird thing is that I hate all the things Hateful Atheist hates as it relates to the telling of the Christian story and the Christian history. I had to let go of some things to hang onto the parts I love – the parts that are life giving. Many people can not do that. As Rachel Held Evans noted in her book some people make things fundamental that are not fundamentals so these unreconciled differences forced them to choose between two things that could have co-existed like science and faith.
Thanks for your comment. Like Lee, there is some logic to what appears to be illogical co-existence of faith and science.
P.S. Hateful and/or evil people will use whatever system of beliefs or power structure that will serve their ends. This says nothing about the nature of those structures (political, religious etc.) nor the nature of God by whatever name you choose (Allah, Jehovah, the great spaghetti monster) as it does about those who manipulate them for earthly ends rather than the will of the divine. In my travels I have found atheist to be some of most religious people, far more rigid in their beliefs and less ecumenical than the average Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Wican (sp) et al. Like our friends in Hillside those outside of the community only focus on the minority of bad individuals than the majority that are simply living out the best life in relationship to others as they can. Your own organization is a powerful proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in that all are welcome, all are Embraced to the degree that they are willing without first converting to a particular religion, denomination, or doctrine. A Muslim or Atheist would be as welcomed and embraced as are our Jewish, Christian (of many walks) and the undecided staff and volunteers that currently make up this organization.
Great point. Thanks for your kind assessment of embrace. We are just a group of broken people doing the best we can.
Stop lying to yourself, you are a cherry-picker, and a scripture twister.
Also do not call yourself a Jesus follower until you stop cherry-picking and scripture twisting.
Linda,
A real Jesus follower who tells it like it is.
Linda,
Is your issue with “creation” verses “evolution?” I have no idea how you can say I am twisting scripture or cherry picking since I quote no scriptures here. In the other post you commented on, I was arguing against “cherry” picking and calling Christians to incorporate all of the four gospels into the definition of “the Gospel.” You are obviously angry about something but I have no idea what I wrote to upset you to the point that you resort to name calling.
The Bible teaches creationism, not evolution, so in order to believe in evolution and the Bible you must be doing some major scripture twisting and/or cherry-picking, that is simply a logical conclusion. Do you not understand basic logic? That “angry” atheist seems to understand logic better than you.
How do you know that I am angry? You assume too much. Or are you saying that I am angry to make me look bad? Is that why you call the atheist angry, to make him look bad?
I heard that the truth hurts, do you not agree?
But you know the Truth can also set you free.
Thank you for that clarification.